In this episode we hear from the iconic Jim Gashel and look back at the passage of the 1974 Amendments to the Randolph-Sheppard Act.
Intro music (00:03):
We are Randolph shepherd podcast. We are Randolph shepherd podcast.
Introduction (00:16):
This is the, we are Randolph shepherd podcast promoting blind entrepreneur and independence. And now here's the dynamic duo, Nikki GACO and Terry Smith.
Nikki (00:26):
Welcome, welcome to our first ever Randol shepherd. We are Randol shepherd podcast and I'm here with my friend partner, Terry Smith, uh, which I call team 10 Terry and Nicky. Everybody always says Terry and Nick, Terry, and Nicky or Nicky and Terry, but it sounds better team tan. So we'll go with Terry and Nicky. It's very exciting. You know, Terry and I have worked together and been friends for a number of years. And, um, I was thinking about what we got together to do this podcast that, uh, what differences we had or what we had in common and stuff. And, and I said that there was only a couple of differences, one that he's a recovering bureaucrat and I'm an entrepreneur. And then the other big one was that, uh, I root for the Florida Gators cuz my son got his PhD there and Terry and we all know as a Tennessee ball fan.
Nikki (01:16):
But the other thing too, that I thought of was what do we have in common? Well, we both have two sons. That's one thing. We both have a passion for good food, uh, family, and of course Randall shepherd. And the other thing that we have is that, uh, we both, um, love our grandkids to death and we both sleep with a grandmother. But besides that, we have so many things that we are excited about to do this today. Um, I want to thank our sponsors that we couldn't do this with. And that's of course the national of merchants also SUO and Coca-Cola and we hope to add many more sponsors so that we can increase this. So, um, let me introduce, uh, my partner, my friend, Terry Smith, Terry.
Terry (01:57):
Well, thank you Nick. And, uh, thanks for bringing tears in my eyes just to make me think about Tennessee football. Uh, but uh, Hey, it is what it is and you're, you know, you're a ball fan for life and that's what I, that's what I am.
Nikki (02:09):
Well, there's always, there's always the Titans, Terry. Yeah,
Terry (02:12):
There's always the Titans, not the Titans. Um, Hey, I can't help, but um, but be amused by the introduction, the dynamic duo, I mean, you said Terry and Nikki, and so we're the, you know, maybe we should change our theme song to the Batman song, you know, Batman and Robin or whatever. Uh, uh, I don't know. I don't know if I'm Robin or not in this, but uh, there've been a lot of famous duos. Now I wanna tell you my favorite. This is gonna surprise you, Nikki. This is something you, you do not know about out me. You know, when you think of all the famous, uh, dynamic duos, my favorite is the lone ranger and Toto, and that doesn't fit me and you bunny stretches the imagination
Nikki (03:17):
Geez, I'm Todd more in individual, like the Cojack type of people, you know, um, um, Rockford and those kind of people, but dynamic duo. Oh, geez. I have to think about that. Um, I think of team, you know, me, I'm a sports guy. I always think of, uh, Stabler to Biletnikoff or, you know, stall back to drew Pearson, the hail Mary. Yeah. But, um, you know, that kind of stuff. It did, you know, I guess there's just a lot and I guess we would fit in on different things. We'd be different duos, but I could go with, I could, I like Toto better than I like Batman and Robin. Cause I, I don't think either one of us is Robin, but, but we could both be kind of Batman. Cause we got that kind of thing where we take our mask off and we're still Bruce Wayne, um, you know, that kind of thing. So we could be Batman, but, um, but, but I like that, um, uh, Toto thing, I like that.
Terry (04:08):
So let's do, you know, if you, you go to these meetings and conferences and you, and, and as, and as an ice breaker, they tell you, okay. Um, I want you to talk to your neighbor, sitting to you, somebody you don't know, talk to them for two minutes and then we're gonna have you introduce them to the audience. Let's sort of do our own little version of that. Uh, rather than you tell about yourself and me tell about myself, uh, I want to, uh, introduce you to the audience. Uh, and then you will get to introduce me how's that sounds
Nikki (04:39):
Good to me.
Terry (04:40):
All right. So I'll keep,
Nikki (04:42):
Pick this down.
Terry (04:44):
Hey, I'm always nice. So, um, Nikki GACO, uh, is, is, is really, if you're listening to this podcast, I don't need to introduce you to Nikki GACO, but, uh, uh, you know, Nikki is, you know, foremost, he is a, you know, a father and a grandfather and a hug husband. Uh, and as he said, uh, early on in the things that we have in common, he has a, you know, a strong family man, uh, and family always comes first. Uh, you know, Nicky has a background in owning and operating restaurants before he got into Randolph shepherd. So, um, you know, he is, he has done, uh, you know, the restaurant side. Um, he got into Randolph shepherd, uh, been in it over 20 years now. Uh, he is very successful. He operates the largest postal service, uh, facility in the country in Jersey city, Jersey. Um, he is a strong member of the national Federation of the blind. Uh, and he's the president of the national association of blind merchants. His strongest asset is relationship building. That's what he does better than anybody, uh, that I know, uh, building relationships and whether it be with vendors or SLAs or suppliers or manufacturers, uh, whoever, uh, he is a great relationship builder. And, and, and I'm really happy to be able to, to, to do this podcast with him.
Nikki (06:09):
So Terry Smith, what can I say about Terry Smith? Everyone knows Terry Smith, just like, um, he said about me, uh, for those that don't know, Terry was the, um, head of blind services for the state of Tennessee for 28 years. And then at his retirement party, which, um, we flew down to, to, um, surprise him a little bit. And also, but we went down there with purpose of, uh, making an offer. He couldn't refuse, uh, to come to work with the, uh, national association, blind merchants and the national Federation of the blind. And, uh, um, it was been an exciting 10 years for, for me. I don't know how Terry feels about it, but we'll find out, but we are doing this podcast. So that must be something good. Um, and it's just been a wonderful time. Um, as Terry said, um, I build relationships with partnerships.
Nikki (06:54):
Um, Terry is our, our go-to guy. He knows the rules. Um, and you know, like ex-governor Christie, New Jersey said, these are not suggestions. These are rules. And Terry's very big on the rules, I guess that's his, uh, bureaucratic background, which is a good thing. And, um, also he's very good with, um, data. Um, you know, there's an old say in, uh, in God we trust everyone else bring his data and Terry can provide those facts and everything that, that that's good for that. Terry's also got a, uh, family background, which I like a lot. Um, and, um, also he is got a love of God, which is also a very good thing too for, you know, type of thing that goes along with his family. Um, loves his kids, loves his wife, loves his mother. Um, many times will, maybe people don't know that, but will be out, uh, traveling and hopefully soon again, but, uh, Terry will leave to make sure he calls his mother every night and his wife to make sure that's something that she just can't put into somebody he's also the president of the national Federation of the blind of Tennessee showing his commitment to the NB, making sure that he brought that back together, Tennessee, which is always good to, um, have structure.
Nikki (08:02):
Um, and I guess that's something that Terry brings is, is structure and, um, relation and, and professionalism. That's how I would describe Terry professional. And it's always good to have somebody on your team, um, like that, and that's important. And that's why between our relationships and my relationships and his profess, um, we're gonna move on and do this and bring in more training and things to, um, the Randall shepherd community.
Terry (08:31):
Well, thank you. One thing I'll add to that. So everybody understands when somebody from Jersey shows up and makes sure an offer, you can't refuse, you literally cannot refuse it. So, uh, uh, but it has been a, an amazing 10 years, and I've said many times, if I, I thought I'd known, I could have gotten a gig like this. I would've retired, uh, many years sooner, but, uh, uh, you know, I, I, I, I absolutely love what I've been doing. And, um, so looking forward to, uh, what lies ahead, but, uh, I just wanna just real quickly, Nicki, I just wanna say, you know, this podcast was your vision. This is something you have wanted to do for, uh, a long time. Uh, and now it's happening. Uh, so first of all, congratulations for, for, for you, you know, helping make this a reality. Uh, and I wanted to give you just a second to sort of tell why you wanted to do this podcast and sort of what you hope we accomplished with it.
Nikki (09:25):
Well, you know, many, many years ago, people don't know, but I stood up on the stage and talked about that. We needed a national nonprofit to one run, Randall shepherd, and I think now more ever, we need something like that. We need change. We've been through a very tough two years, uh, in the Randall shepherd community and we need tra change. And you know, that, um, I believe in training, I was one of the original starters of the blast business leadership and spirit superior training that, uh, Terry has jumped on board and, and made even stronger. We hope to, uh, bring that back very soon. Live. We've done a number of things, but I believe in training, I think that if you're gonna have ch change, um, we need training. And the newest thing now is podcasts. I thought about it. Terry helped build, you know, sometimes I'm the thinker.
Nikki (10:11):
And then, like I said, um, working together, we got this done. So it's not the first thing we on, you know, a number of things that we work together. Uh, our women's initiative, our emerging leaders initiative, uh, new things that we're thinking of all the time accessibility that we work on, but this is exciting because it's, you know, I always, I never consider myself blind we're business people. And if we're gonna compete in a world today, we need to be business people, uh, men and women, and, um, who just happened to be blind. But, um, and this is, you know, podcasts are becoming a new hot thing, and I'm so excited that this is number one of many more to come. And, um, so we're very excited about having our first one and Terry, um, it was a, a great interview that we did and that you did. And, um, let's go to, let's get started of our first podcast of we are Randolph shepherd.
Terry (11:01):
Okay, great. So one of the things that we decided we were gonna do, we're gonna start every podcast with a segment. We call what's up and with what's up, um, we each get 20 seconds to say, whatever is on our mind. It may have to do with Randolph shepherd. It may have to do with FA it may have to do with sports it, whatever, but whatever's on, on our mind, we're gonna share it with you for 20 seconds, max. So, uh, Nicki what's up,
Nikki (11:28):
Well, 20 seconds is tough for you with me, but we'll get this done. Um, what's up right now is that this, uh, recording will come to you in a couple weeks, but it's football playoff season. And it's very exciting. And, um, just had a national champion last week at Alabama lost last week. That's amazing, but, uh, looking very forward to this and looking forward to, um, this cold, nasty weather changing soon, cause when winter comes, can
Terry (11:52):
Spring be far behind. Okay. So for my 22nd, I'm gonna stick with the sports theme. Uh, when this thing drops, uh, we're planning, we're hoping this thing drops on January 31st. Uh, I'm not exactly sure that that's gonna be the exact date, but when you listen to this, you know, who's playing in the super bowl. And, uh, we on we're, we're recording this a couple of weeks ahead of time. So we don't know who, uh, is gonna be in the super bowl. The first round of the playoffs are completed. And so I'm just gonna say, I'm looking forward to the Titans, playing the Packers next week and, and, and, and the Titans being crown and super bowl champions. So let me go off the
Nikki (12:30):
Limb and say that I argue my prediction into, and I, I think it's gonna be
Terry (12:33):
Tampa and Buffalo, Tampa and Buffalo. Okay. There you are. We're on the record. We can't take it back. It's like it's been recorded. And when this thing drops, we'll know whether or not, uh, um, we're either one of us is right. Uh, of course I gotta admit. Now mine was a little bit, uh, biased in the, in, you know, in the, in sticking with the Titans, but Hey, hope Springs eternal. Um, just to give you a little background, uh, on what we're doing here, we're gonna be doing a monthly podcast. Um, and it will, our plan is to release them on right at the very last day or right at the end of the month. Um, and, um, so, um, the first four podcast, uh, we've, we've, we've pretty, we've got planned out in terms of the way we're gonna do it. And the first two are gonna be sort of taking a look back, um, and, uh, looking back at history, uh, of the Randolph shepherd program, and we're gonna focus primarily on the history of the 1974 amendments.
Terry (13:37):
Now, the Randolph shepherd act was passed in 1936, uh, long time ago. It was amended 18 years later in 1954, and then amended again in 1974. The program is, we know it today, uh, is pretty much shaped by the, those 1974 amendments. There was one person that was interally involved in crafting and PA getting the 1974 amendments passed. And that was Jim Gael. Uh, and Jim Gael was, uh, you know, uh, worked for the national Federation of blind. Uh, that was one of his early assignments was to get the, uh, uh, the 74 amendments passed. And we had an opportunity to sit down and talk with Jim about those 1974 amendments, what led up to them about the negotiations, uh, and, and all of that. So let's go and, and, and hope you enjoy our interview with this is part one of our interview with Jim Gael.
Terry (14:46):
We are really fortunate today to have, uh, a man that really needs no introduction to the Randolph she community. In fact, he is a legend in the Randolph shepherd community. And if there was ever a, a Mount Rushmore for Randolph shepherd, his name and his head would be right there in the center of it. Uh, and I gotta say, and I don't say it just because he's here, I've said it many times. I learned more about Randolph. She, uh, from Jim Gael than I did anybody, uh, on this earth and, you know, sometimes it was a forced learning experience when I was a director and he was beating me over the head with the law. But, uh, yeah, we, I had a, I worked a lot with Jim when I was with the state and have enjoyed the relationship and consider him a friend and a mentor and, uh, uh, just a, a great advocate for, for the blah. So, Jim, thank you for being with us.
Jim (15:33):
Well, thank you. Nice to be here.
Terry (15:35):
And now, while we just, uh, as we diverse just a second, uh, most of us are in the grips of a winter snowstorm. Uh, where are you today?
Jim (15:44):
Well, I in Honolulu and it's, it's sunny and, um, echo, what's the temperature? What's the tempera right now. It's 78 degrees Fahrenheit tonight, expect a load of 66 degrees. Yeah, 60 Thursday, 66 tonight, which is cold for us. But, uh, 78 is our high during the day.
Terry (16:08):
Well, and a lot of people just clicked off when you said that that's
Jim (16:51):
Kid? Well, I, I took over as chief of the Washington office of the N B on January 1st, 1974. And, um, and so the, the Randolph shepherd act amendments weren't passed until the following December the, um, so, so really, um, the first law, the first federal law that I can say have any of my fingerprints on it, maybe some blood on it too, would be the, uh, Randolph shepherd amendment of 1974.
Terry (17:34):
So tell us about your education of how you got educated about ran. She, were you, was that your first education?
Jim (17:42):
No, not exactly. Um, you know, I, I grew up as a blind person. I was aware of the fact that there were vendors I lived in Iowa and, um, oh, I think we had 25, maybe as many as 29 vending facilities. They called them vending stands at that time. And I really a very good friend of mine had, uh, the vending stand in the, uh, in, in the valley bank building, which was, uh, a few blocks away from the orientation center, the Iowa commission for the blind. And I used to go down there and visit him. And once in a while even worked the place for him. And I would say my first, um, summer job, or one of my first summer jobs. And this was while I was, uh, in undergraduate school was, um, washing dishes in one of the state house cafeterias of the largest state office building in Des Moines.
Jim (18:46):
And, um, it was, it was me in a couple of ex from the state prison back there in the dish room
Terry (19:44):
Awesome. I didn't realize that you, you, you had that practical experience as well.
Jim (19:48):
Terry (19:55):
Right. So, so take us back to, to 1974 and, and what was happening and, and, and what, what, what were the driving forces that came together to lead to the introduction of the amendments and the ultimate passing of the 74
Jim (20:11):
Amendments? It, yeah, well, some of this predates me and my knowledge anyway of the details, but I recall somewhat vaguely that, um, uh, that the NFB and, and those others that were involved in, in the Randolph show effort program at the time, um, started working on amendments to the, uh, Randolph shepherd act as early as 1968. There may have been discussions prior to that time, but I'm pretty sure I remember a bill being introduced in the Congress and talked about in 1968. Um, and, and really, um, one of the problems that we wanted to have addressed was, um, the coverage of cafeteria is under the, under the act we we had in Des Moines. Um, one of the first federal cafeterias, uh, but technically it wasn't allowed or covered under the Randolph shepherd act. Um, we had to call it a manually operated snack bar and, um, and it was, and, and, and it, you know, it passed muster and there were no rules about bidding out cafeterias and things like that.
Jim (21:40):
We, we really had to depend on, um, congressional intervention from our members of our Iowa congressional delegation, but they, I think it was in 1968, it could have been late 1967 that, um, a new federal building was, uh, opened up in Des Moines. And, and we got the, what became an manually operated snack bar, uh, which was really a large cafeteria on the sixth floor of the, uh, new federal building. So that issue around cafeterias became part of the impetus for the amendments that started to get worked on in 1968. Um, there was a lot of opposition because, um, federal employee unions, postal worker unions, um, were getting money, a lot of money from vending machine operations and some minority business enterprise too on, uh, federal property. And these, um, competitions were, um, growing greater and greater during the 1960s. And, and basically pushing the Randolph shepherd act to the sideline.
Jim (23:09):
It of the Randolph shepherd bending stands to the sidelines. And you had lobby stands basically. So, um, you know, the, but, but the, the employee unions were a strong lobby, particularly the American postal workers union. And, um, they had these welfare and recreation fund activities that stood to lose a lot, um, early versions of the amendments starting out in 1968, called for all of the vending machine income, uh, from vending machines on federal property to go to licensed blind vendors or to state licensing agencies, if there weren't when the licensed blind vendor
Jim (24:37):
And Senator Randolph decided that he was gonna go to the mat, uh, for, um, amendments. And, um, so he kept working on this, um, in the 19 72, 19 73 timeframe. And, um, I knew this precisely at one time, but right in that time period, um, he asked for a general counting office report. Um, they now call it the, uh, government accountability office, but, um, uh, a, a study of impediments to, um, growth of the Randolph shepherd and, um, wow. Uh, they listed out, I don't remember now, but it was somewhere between five, maybe 10, uh, major impediments to growth of the program. One of the principle one was the competition from vending machines on federal property, but there were others. And, and, um, that report, the GAO report that came out in, I wanna say, uh, the fall of 1973, but it could have been a little bit earlier than that be came the impetus for the 1974, um, amendments.
Jim (26:15):
And, um, and then there were hearings, uh, really late in 1973. I wasn't involved in those, but the NFB was, uh, involved in those. And, um, and then, and then by the time I got the on board in 1974, um, we were working on the specifics of what provisions would go in the bill. And, uh, I remember in the summer of 1974, um, I undertook direct negotiations with the American postal workers union. Um, and, uh, uh, up until the, that time, it had largely been the Senate staff, um, who had, uh, worked on this and, and were negotiating with them. And, and then in the summer, I wanna say mid June, 1974, um, uh, I, or took negotiations with the head lobbyist for the American postal workers union. Um, and, and he actually came to and spoke at the NP convention part of it. Uh, I don't remember if the whole agenda or, or, I mean, the, one of the big sessions or, or the merchants, one of the two, but anyways spoke.
Jim (27:48):
And, um, we talked about, you know, um, options that, that were available. And by that time they were becoming somewhat more, um, resigned to the fact that there were going to be amendments. And, uh, we, we sort of had the framework of, uh, what the vending machine income, um, uh, concession or deal would, would, would look like. Uh, unfortunately the gentleman that I'm talking about, and honestly, I forget his name as we sit here. I, I did know him very well, uh, um, but he was, he was shot and killed on the street in Washington, DC in August of 1974, after coming out of a restaurant, uh, he and his wife had to dinner. I don't know what the circumstances were, but I was a young puppy first time in Washington, only a few months into the job. And here's the guy I'm negotiating with getting shot down.
Jim (28:54):
Uh, I don't imagine that that had anything to do with what we were up to at the time, but it certainly crossed my mind. And, uh,
Jim (30:06):
It didn't say the postal service, but it says where most of the work hours are not normally, but in the normal working hours,
Terry (31:20):
Wow. That's interesting. I don't think anybody listing realized that that the 74 amendments were six years in the making, uh, from 1968. Oh yeah,
Jim (31:28):
They sure were. Yeah.
Terry (31:31):
So that was part one of our interview with Jim Gael.
Terry (31:35):
Well, Nikki, who would've ever thought that murder and mystery would be part of the history of the 1974 amendments. And, you know, I, I sort of, I could feel Gas's, uh, anxiety there when, uh, uh, he was talking about, uh, you know, the union rep that he was negotiating with gets gunned down in the streets, right. In the middle of the negotiations. Uh, that could be a bit intimidating, but, uh, uh, but you know, it sounded like we were watching an episode of a house of cards on Netflix, but, uh, hopefully, and I trust it was unrelated to the negotiations that were happening, but I, I, I found the interview very, very interesting and, uh, couple of things that I picked up on it, but first, Nick, what, what's your immediate reaction to what we've heard so far?
Nikki (32:20):
Well, I always think it's important and that we've learned history and don't repeat it, but the thing how involved the consumer groups that were, and how important they still are today, you know, in many ways. So I think it's very important if we get anything out of this is the history, which a lot of people don't know about. And the other big thing is how, how important it's to be involved, um, with consumer groups like the national Federation of blind and, uh, the national association of blind merchants, so that we can make other changes, uh, to be part of this and, and make good positive changes.
Terry (32:53):
Absolutely. And, you know, you're the, you started the conversation, uh, you know, a while back. And I, I picked up on it and have included it in some of the presentations that I've made to states. Uh, but many of the accomplishments in advances in Randolph shepherd came about as a result of consumers initiating that change. And the 1974 amendments are a perfect example. It was the consumers, uh, that, that drove, that changed. The other thing I found that, that I, I thought was fascinating, uh, from, from, from what Jim said, and, and, and we really appreciate Jim doing that interview, uh, that it took six years to pass the 1974 amendments. I mean, the, the, the original bill was introduced in 1968. Uh, that
Nikki (33:40):
Was, that was crazy.
Terry (33:41):
Yeah. Six years. So, you know, we're, we talk now about what we need to, you know, do we need to open up the law and change it and that kind of stuff, just, you know, if you do that, um, you know, it's not gonna be anything that happens, uh, uh, real soon so that, you know, that was a six year process. And, uh, you know, the, the political landscape was much different in, you know, in the early seventies than it is now. Um, but, uh, well, I don't know they had Watergate going on, so maybe it wasn't that different
Terry (34:30):
We're gonna look at the history of how we got where we are with, uh, the cele amendments. Uh, and then in our fourth podcast, we're gonna look ahead into the future. What does the future hold for Randolph? She, um, and then as we go on through, through the year, uh, we've got some ideas that we're gonna be, uh, you know, using, but if you have ideas, please share those with us. Uh, and, uh, we we'd be glad to, uh, consider those. Um, but, uh, with that, uh, we will close our first. We are Randolph she podcast say goodbye, Nikki.
Nikki (35:07):
Hi, everybody looking forward to seeing you again next week and let us know how you feel about our great podcast. We are Randolph. She thank you. Thank
Terry (35:15):
You, Terry. And before we leave, I just wanna say thank you to our producer, Josh Harper. He's the technical guy as me making all this happen, and we could not do it without him. Thank you, Josh. Thank you, Josh.
Sponsors outro (35:28):
The, we are Randolph shepherd podcast would like to thank our sponsors, the national association of blind merchants Sedexo, and Coca-Cola your support helps make this podcast possible.